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I have already gone through the shame spiral phase. It fears its ugly head just above the surface every now and again, but for the most part it is subdued enough to be focused on our healing. I do my best to hold space for my BH’s feelings when we’re together. It’s okay for me to explore my own feelings, too.

So often BS believe those things to be mutually exclusive, it seems.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 2:04 AM, Sunday, January 11th]

No, I stick to what I just said. You are not at remorse yet. Remorse cannot coexist with selfish vanity. Every moment you spend at selfish vanity, is a moment where you are NOT at remorse.

If I allowed myself to destroy someone I really love for someone who promised a lifetime of riches in return, then true remorse would be me wondering **how the hell I could have entertained such an offer in the first place (because of the pain my loved one is in because of me and my actions)**, NOT me pondering if their check would have cleared and how much money I'd really have gotten.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:12 AM, Sunday, January 11th]

I know how I feel.

Oh no, I’m definitely over xAP. It took maybe a week or two after DDay. I’m not upset at the possibility or likelihood that he, specifically, might not have actually liked me for me. I just want to be liked by others, and it isn’t nice to feel used or lied to. Yes, I see the irony there. And as I said, I betrayed my husband… for that? I was so sure I was smarter and better than that. I feel like such an idiot!

First of all: You are not an idiot, you feel like that is your inside critic shaming you (is the same voice that pushed you inside the arms of another man, so it validates your self sabotages and reinforces it)

You are not over the AP. Let's clear this: I believe you when you feel used or lied and you do not like it.

I believe you because I am a man, and I know men who decide to become predatory of women who are already in a relationship are following a very low instinct:

They are establishing dominance over your man by taking you, and this boosts their ego and validation. They rarely care or respect the woman, she is a conquest and an ego boost, they sleep with you and it is exciting, but they do not choose you.

It is rare that what moves the OM is genuine feeling of love (it can happen, but most often is low impulses like described above), because the OM knows full well that you are paying the price of the betrayal with a piece of your soul. You will carry that for the rest of your life. A person who loves you would not tolerate to put HIS WOMAN under that weight, they will want you to terminate your relationship before starting over with them. Because a person who truly loves you and chooses you, deeply respects you and your feelings and dignity.

A man who does not, is using you for his ego and pleasure:

- You are "complication free sex", easy excuse to not let you have expectations of commitment (so he does not have to commit).

- You are a trophy, not a person but an ego boost to brag with friends for further validation hits (he brags and tells about your exploits and what you "do"for him, no questions asked. A man does not speak of his "chosen woman" to other men like that. Intimacy with your woman is off limits to other males)

- You are a cheater. Deep down, no man will commit seriously to a woman he got through betrayal, because if you did it once you can do it to him next.

I know this might sounds harsh but that's our biology, and I feel you know this to be true already.

Why your heart still seeks comfort in the AP? (aka why you are not fully over it)

Because no matter if you realize it or not yet, it was never about the AP as a man, otherwise you would have left your husband. He was the object of your projections of your unmet needs, your wounds, your traumas, an escape symbol from unresolved issues for your nerve system. You loved how THIS made you feel, you did not love the man. It is chemistry and psychology, the emotions you feel are identical, that is why your mind cannot tell the difference and it feels like love.

That's what you are "still not over"not the man himself, I believe you when you say. Believe me when I say is your projections that you crave now, your system associated that feeling to him, that's the pull you feel.

I’m trying to dig into the "I just want to be liked part." I think that half of me likes myself— it feels proud and speaks kindly to me— and the other half is hypercritical and honestly pretty abusive. It’s a coin toss which side will be louder each day. Occasionally the hateful side will push me to improve at whatever it is I’m getting a lashing for, at least.

It is very common for cheaters to feel this internal criticism that only shuts up when met with external validation. That is why people who feels "I would never cheat" betray their partner. It's a trauma and a wound, they are not evil or corrupted, they are hurt (and they hurt themselves more)

But doesn’t everyone want to be liked by other people? It doesn’t have to be that everyone I meet likes me, but it would be so, so nice if there was a good handful of people that did, who I could spend quality time with. Instead I just feel like an alien inhabiting someone else’s body and trying to figure out how to interact with humans. I want to experience connection, but instead I often feel alone.

No, it depends from your own internal balance and emotional regulation. Being liked is a nice feeling. Being disliked can be either "irrelevant" or "crushing" depending how emotionally mature you are. If you depend from external validation because you cannot "like / love" yourself (you cannot give yourself all the validation you need), is the second.

I don't give a shit if others like me or not anymore, because I like myself enough, I can only be me, cannot be someone else to meet another person's expectation.

You can't too, you can only fake it (and fail, and keep your inside critic well fed because you validate his criticism by denying your true self and pretend). Turns out that when it is you who decide what people you like, you attract them naturally, and they respect your being. That is a message so primal, it is wired in humans that the people who "dislike you" just stays naturally the fuck away from you, and they instinctively respect you enough that they do not need to let you know.

Is no black magic, you are perfectly capable to reach this, everyone is. Stop self sabotaging yourself, love the person you see in the mirror, what she has inside her, feel it.

On other anonymous online platforms, people often accuse me of being the opposite gender or AI, which is like a slap in the face. Even with my BH, sometimes he’ll zone out when I’m speaking passionately about something, or he’ll be repulsed by the topic. Sometimes it’s apathy on his part, which is the most saddening response for me.

Notice here how external validation influences your feelings.

Why do you care what other people think? The only important matter is if what you are sharing is important for you.

Can you validate it or you try to externalize it to get it validated by someone else?

It's subtle but makes all the difference. When you do not need validation and you share others will respond with attention. When they sense you are "testing" for validation you will feel this reaction.

Sharing is important for you, you should do it to who pays you a likewise value in attention. So you need to learn to do it in the way that is worth the attention they give you. If the underlying motive of sharing is simply a "validation chase" both you and your audience are not rewarded by the same value of attention.

And you will feel like that.

Do not overthink it, feel it

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 12:23 PM, Sunday, January 11th]

I know how I feel and I don’t need to prove it to any of you.

Why do you care what other people think?

Because I crave social interaction that feels easy and natural, not forced or complicated. And I don’t get it by "just being myself," like other people seem to. Most people are either neutral or they do not like me. They don’t want my company.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 7:07 PM, Sunday, January 11th]

Because I crave social interaction that feels easy and natural, not forced or complicated. And I don’t get it by "just being myself," like other people seem to. Most people are either neutral or they do not like me. They don’t want my company.

It is important you understand this craving, if you are in therapy you can focus on it, it is a need for external validation (a main driver in betrayal).

I know for a fact that the true you when you are "just being myself" is far more attractive for social interaction that feel easy and natural than any persona you may 'fake'.

Because even if you are a good actress you will likely never be as genuine than your 'true self'. Can you spot when another person is not genuine with you? (is rhetoric, you are a woman, you are especially sensible to spot this) We humans are wired to spot natural and simulated behavior.

And you wish to have a "natural interaction" with others but feel like you cannot get it by being your "natural myself". I am highlighting the dissonance for you to feel the issue you need to address to feel better.

Have you try to consider if the AP, the one who was fake and manipulative (so had a 'fake' relationship with you) is not matching the energy of this fear "only my fake persona is likeable" and therefore is for this reason he right now feels like the appropriate peer to address, even by breaking NC?

You repeated a couple of times "I know what I feel", can you put it into words?

And you have nothing to "prove" here, you asked for help, believe it or not I am trying to give you some insight that might be still below your current consciousness awareness. That is all.

I don’t think this desire to have people who like me in my life is genuinely a desire for validation, though. My husband makes me feel loved, romantically. I think that I like myself, and that the negative voices are leftover from a FOO that instilled perfectionism into me. I can combat that…

But like I was saying, I think that most people desire that. Social interaction is a human need, and it’s not happening for me. I hardly ever meet people who I can spend time with without feeling like I’m expending a ton of energy to do so without getting that connected feeling in return, and I believe that fundamentally boils down to most people not liking me without performing in an inauthentic way.

Can you spot when another person is not genuine with you?

Apparently not!

You repeated a couple of times "I know what I feel", can you put it into words?

I’m not going to about argue the way that I feel if other people think I feel differently after I told them the truth. I don’t care. I know how I feel and that’s all that matters.

I don’t think this desire to have people who like me in my life is genuinely a desire for validation, though. My husband makes me feel loved, romantically. I think that I like myself, and that the negative voices are leftover from a FOO that instilled perfectionism into me. I can combat that…

What you describe sounds very similar to my wife. Believe it or not she had described the same struggles you did here, she betrayed me badly a first time then and regret it. Then it happened again. Then again. Whether EA or PA, she kept relapsing.

Because she avoided confronting her deeper issues. She is doing it now, but it took years and the damage done is extreme.
That forced me to change, she would kill today to be able to turn back time and erase what she did, but that is impossible. For me to change back is impossible.

We are still technically together but I feel nothing now. She is feeling everything and going through hell.
Although we do not know each other, I think you may want to spare the above to both yourself and your BS. That's the purpose of my advice, no matter you found it uncomfortable.

FYI if you can relate to any of what she feels, here is a primer:
- I want to be accepted by people and crave for connection
- I think people judges me badly and I cannot be my self with them
- I fucking hate this mask, I can only take it off with you (referring to me)
- I feel connection with you, you make me feel loved, but sometimes I have doubts that I cannot trust you (to me)
- I feel often critical of others but then I notice I am trying so hard to impress them, and I feel down about it

But like I was saying, I think that most people desire that. Social interaction is a human need, and it’s not happening for me. I hardly ever meet people who I can spend time with without feeling like I’m expending a ton of energy to do so without getting that connected feeling in return, and I believe that fundamentally boils down to most people not liking me without performing in an inauthentic way.

We are wired to find security in group, it is biological survival.
With few exceptions:
- male / female leaders who naturally attract and create their own group/ tribe/ community
- antisocial or sociopaths (some sociopaths are dysfunctional but swim and simulate well social connections)
All humans long to be accepted withing the larger tribe, and will mold their persona to be validated and included

We do that through social and emotional intelligence, often mirroring and projecting our egos and expectations to "probe and match" others egos and expectation. (Imagine small talk, is not just an excruciating nonsense, it is an instinctively codified ritual to probe the 'safety' of others to gauge how much you can open to and how to "mimic" their perceived expectations)

In this social interaction scenario we find this into others:
- Neutral = Keep superficial and pleasant conversation, but requires some energy, at some point you will run out. Is a sparring, you both perform, expending energy can turn it from "ok" into "boring or even hostile" for both, when forced too much. The most common (likely what you find exhausting).
- Positive - you can open up a bit more because they open up a bit more. The conversation flow easily as you both are not constantly walking on eggshells, costs way less emotional intelligence energy to maintain (but still does, you do not open fully yet). If it has a follow-up, then you both gradually open up more and friendship relationships might sprout from this kind of interactions (you keep yourself closed very little compared to others, they do the same, you are both mostly sincere)
- Danger - those are the interaction that make you unease. Does not necessarily mean physical danger but our nerve system reacts the same. You want to interrupt and avoid. If you force this kind of interaction the emotional intelligence cost you pay is astronomic, this will drain you very quickly (it will nourish them if they are predatory). These can end into manipulation if a party is predatory, because when the other energy is expended they might slip into a "surrender phase" and the predator can take advantage, the loser will even feel grateful for that. That's why your nerve system alerts you and make them uncomfortable, it's a hint to run away

Then there are those rare situations when you feel can open yourself like with nobody else, the other does the same and you feel a connection. If you are the opposite sex you will feel attraction and this are potential relationships.

Can you spot when another person is not genuine with you?

Apparently not!

You are a woman, did it ever happen a man approached you, someone that you found initially attractive and then quickly faded away and you lost interest in his flirting?

That is an example of your innate wiring. Women are especially sensitive to those subtle social clues. You do have it too. Think that your feeling about your husband and that "people do not like you" are exactly that. I imagine they try to be decent and polite with you, but you still pick up on those subtle signals and those make you feel bad.

You can feel it, it's human instinct, you are perfectly normal.

You repeated a couple of times "I know what I feel", can you put it into words?

I’m not going to about argue the way that I feel if other people think I feel differently after I told them the truth. I don’t care. I know how I feel and that’s all that matters.

Hear me out clearly: I never think or care to tell you that "you feel differently than how you know you feel".
For 2 reasons:

1- I am genuinely detached, there is no judgement from me, I accept you as you are: a person who 'asked my attention' for advice. I do not care if you were cheating or have been cheated. Because I do not need to judge you or have zero expectation for you to match to feel empathy towards you. You are a person asking for help. I felt sympathy for your story so I am investing my energy to give you some helpful tips.

2- I value my time and attention extremely highly. Bickering or arguments are not worthy it, I never talk to someone to vent frustration and using them as a punching bag, I simply consider irrelevant that stuff, brings me nothing. Your "case" is very similar to my wife, I know what was going through her (even she had no idea back then, starting to emotionally realize it only lately), perhaps it can help you to look inside and see if you are following a similar pattern, so it will be easier for you to address issues before they destroy your life even more.

It is because I can relate that I am investing time in trying to help you. You can consider the experiences of others who went through what you are passing now can be valuable for you, or you can dismiss it as "judgement" when it is not (but it's easier if you do not truly want to face the subconscious), it is a choice if you want to believe it, or you decide I am lying/accusing you. It is YOUR choice, so I will respect it.

My experience only warns you, because I know where that choice leads.

I’m not dismissing anything as judgement.

All I’m saying is if I truthfully share that I feel A, and somebody responds with "No, you feel B," the only thing I’m going to respond with is "I know how I feel." Because I do, and I’m not going to argue about it. Don’t take it personally.

I’m not dismissing anything as judgement.

All I’m saying is if I truthfully share that I feel A, and somebody responds with "No, you feel B," the only thing I’m going to respond with is "I know how I feel." Because I do, and I’m not going to argue about it. Don’t take it personally.

Feelings come from emotions.

Emotions are the sign of deeper psychology. You know already you can genuinely feel something (like during the A) only to later realize that feeling was mislead caused by an underlying emotion that you did not fully absorb before, and led you astray.

You may feel something and still accept that the feeling could be stemming from something else than what you assumed.

And you feel that doubt already, otherwise you would not have asked for help, your soul learned it before, therefore is demanding clarity, or you would have already acted on your impulse.

Do not worry I do not take anything personally.
I hope this helps you.